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A BIT OF CHICO XAVIER BY SUELY CALDAS SCHUBERT
Um Pouco de Chico Xavier por Suely Caldas Schubert
Un Poco de Chico Xavier por Suely Caldas Schubert
Interações, vol. 16, núm. 2, pp. 430-447, 2021
Pontifícia Universidade Católica de Minas Gerais

DEBATES E COMUNICAÇÕES



Recepción: 23 Marzo 2021

Aprobación: 28 Mayo 2021

DOI: https://doi.org/10.5752/P.1983-2478.2021v16n2p430-447

Abstract: An interview conducted on August 17, 2019, during the 3rd Congress of the Aliança Municipal Espírita de Belo Horizonte, with the medium and writer from Minas Gerais State in Brazil, Suely Caldas Schubert. This interview deals with Suely Caldas' relationship with the famous medium from the same State, Francisco Cândido Xavier, with emphasis on the book Testemunhos de Chico Xavier, in which she made contact with his intimacy, bringing to light personal letters he wrote to Wantuil de Freitas, the President of the Brazilian Spiritist Federation at that time. This record is part of my doctoral research in the Graduate Program in Religious Studies at PUC Minas titled Na intimidade do coração: a mística na vida e obra de Chico Xavier.

Keywords: Chico Xavier, Mysticism, Suely Caldas Schubert.

Resumo: Entrevista realizada em 17 de agosto de 2019, durante o 3° Congresso da Aliança Municipal Espírita de Belo Horizonte, com a médium e escritora mineira Suely Caldas Schubert. Essa entrevista trata do convívio de Suely Caldas com o famoso médium mineiro Francisco Cândido Xavier, com ênfase na obra Testemunhos de Chico Xavier, na qual faz contato com a intimidade dele, trazendo a público as cartas pessoais que ele escrevia a Wantuil de Freitas, Presidente da Federação Espírita Brasileira na época. Esse registro é parte da nossa pesquisa de Doutorado no Programa de Pós-graduação em Ciências da Religião da PUC Minas intitulado Na Intimidade Do Coração: a mística na vida e obra de Chico Xavier.

Palavras-chave: Chico Xavier, Mística, Suely Caldas Schubert.

Resumen: Entrevista realizada el 17 de agosto de 2019, durante el III Congreso de la Alianza Espírita Municipal de Belo Horizonte, con la médium y escritora de Minas Gerais, Suely Caldas Schubert. Esta entrevista trata de la convivencia de Suely Caldas con el famoso médium de Minas Gerais, Francisco Cândido Xavier, con énfasis en la obra Testemunhos de Chico Xavier, en que ella hace contacto con su intimidad, sacando a la luz las cartas personales que él escribió a Wantuil de Freitas, en la época presidente de la Federación Espiritista Brasileña. Este informe es parte de nuestra investigación de doctorado en el programa de postgrado en Ciencias de la Religión de la PUC Minas, titulada, Na intimidade do coração: a mística na vida e obra de Chico Xavier.

Palabras clave: Chico Xavier, Mística, Suely Caldas Schubert.

I have started my doctoral research project in the Graduate Program of Religious Studies at PUC Minas in March 2019 titled IN THE INTIMACY OF THE HEART: the mystical in Chico Xavier’s life and work. This research aims to identify whether there would be possible to establish, based on the life and work of the famous medium from Minas Gerais, Chico Xavier, a relationship with the main characteristics of great mystics from history, identifying the presence of a mysticism focused on the practice of love and charity, and whether it has influences that go beyond the Spiritism of Allan Kardec.

Although according to testimonials obtained by people who were close to Chico Xavier, he did not believe in his condition as a person that could be considered a mystic, we will try to prove such hypothesis through bibliographic and documental research, and by interviewing people who had personal contact with the medium from Minas Gerais State. This interview will allow us to give voice to Chico Xavier, offering relevant information about his thoughts and bringing, whenever possible, his points of view. This is relevant as, in most of the cases, much of what is attributed to his speech has been reported as the voices of the spirits through his psychography.

One of his most personal historical records was reported in the book written by the medium and writer Suely Caldas Schubert entitled Testemunhos de Chico Xavier (2010), in which the author got in touch with his intimacy, bringing to light the personal letters he wrote to Wantuil de Freitas, President of the Brazilian Spiritist Federation at that time. These letters were not from the so-called spirits but from the person Francisco Cândido Xavier, in which he reported his battles and pains in the conduction of spiritist’s mission that he assumed for himself. Thus, on August 17, 2019, during the 3rd Congress of the Aliança Municipal Espírita de Belo Horizonte, to meet the objectives of our research, we recorded an interview[1] with Suely Caldas Schubert.

She was born in a spiritist family, on December 9, 1939, in Carangola, Minas Gerais State, Brazil, and during her childhood moved to the city Juiz de Fora, in the same state. Schubert is a writer, medium, and consecrated speaker. She has dedicated herself, throughout her lifetime, especially to the study of mediumship and the promotion of Spiritism. Furthermore, she was one of the founders of the Joana de Angelis Spiritist Society, in Juiz de Fora, and since 1971 she has been working for the Municipal Spiritist Alliance in the same city where she is the Director of the Mediumship Department. She wrote seventeen books, among which we highlight: Dimensões Espirituais do Centro Espírita (2012); Divaldo Franco: uma vida com os Espíritos (2006a); Obsessão/Desobsessão: Profilaxia e Terapêutica Espíritas (1999); Os Poderes da Mente (2010); O Semeador de Estrelas (1989); Testemunhos de Chico Xavier (2010) e Transtornos Mentais: uma leitura espírita (2006b).

Below follows Suely Caldas Schubert’s interview:

1. How did you first meet Chico Xavier?

My knowledge about Chico Xavier comes from a long time before I went to visit him at first. As I come from a spiritist family, and although my father only finished the third grade of elementary school, he was a tireless reader and was always reading and studying the Doctrine, trying to gain more knowledge. This is how I came into contact with Chico's books and others of the Doctrine.

When I was 9 years old, I started reading the first spiritist books, which, in this case, were some novels by an author named Fernando do Ó. I must say that I am a compulsive reader. I read all my father's books, even the non-spiritist ones, collections by varied authors. My life is reading, then writing.

I started reading the novels, and then I started reading the doctrinaire works, including Kardec's Codification, and as I was reading the books of André Luiz, Emmanuel, these readings evoked inside me the desire to meet Chico. I had the impression that I already knew him, that he was somewhat familiar to me, something that later was confirmed by him. And then, in 1960, we decided to go to Uberaba to meet him personally.

2. How old were you at that time?

I was 21 years old. I was already married, and I was the mother of a very young baby girl. I got married when I was just 18 years old.

First of all, let me tell you the reason I went to Uberaba. There was a major reason, I was already psychographing, because my mediumship started when I was 16 years old, the time when I started to administer passes, at the Ivon Costa Spiritist Center, in Juiz de Fora. Later on, when I was 19, already married, feeling a very intense spiritual presence, I started to psychograph at home. During the gospel service at home, with my husband and my parents, I sometimes felt the desire to psychograph, and I started to do it. Soon after, we started to hold a small mediumistic session in our house. At this time, I already had my little daughter for a few months. Some friendly spirits wrote instructive messages. Later, I started receiving messages from a spirit who signed his name as Militão Pacheco. I didn't know who he was! I thought that the name was very strange, but I signed it because the message was very good!

When I started, the psychographed pages came with a title, content, and a signature. But Militão Pacheco's messages really caught my attention. Some days later, while leafing through one of my father's books with messages psychographed by Chico Xavier, I discovered one that had been written by Militão Pacheco. I was worried about it because I thought I have read a book and that name would have remained in my subconscious. That is why I signed Militão Pacheco... but, maybe it is not him. These are the doubts of the beginner medium, that's why we went to Uberaba.

At that time, Chico was attending at the Comunhão Espírita Cristã de Uberaba and knowing this we went there. But we agreed to be the last in line so we could have a little more time and not be in a rush with people waiting to be assisted, which makes the creature begin to summarize the conversation a lot, so we stayed last.

Then, a few meters away from Chico, he looked at me and said, “Suely, my daughter, I have waited so long for you to come”. I was very surprised and emotional. I could barely walk. I got close to him, and he hugged me and said, “I didn't know you were here, that's when I saw our doctor Militão Pacheco come in and hug a person. When I paid attention, it was you!” My God, I already had all the answers! Yeah, I didn't even have to ask more questions! Then, I was like…, I lost my speech. We can't even speak, you know!

3. Did you lose your speech because Chico had never seen you before?

Yeah, and I had never seen him in person! Yeah, so it's... it's an impact, that emotion!

And he was also very gentle with my husband. It was a very interesting thing. And from that moment, he began to advise me about my mediumship. And he said that I really should psychograph daily and that I was being protected by Dr. Militão Pacheco[2], a homeopathic doctor who was part of the Spiritist Federation of São Paulo.

4. Did you visit Chico regularly? How was it? How many times were you with him until he passed away?

Look, it wasn't regularly, because soon after, in 1960, I had the second baby. And with that, there were a lot of difficulties to travel, and we had financial issues, and that also stood in our way. We went there by bus the first time.

We also went later by car, on other occasions. I spent years without going there, more than 2, 3 years because I couldn't afford it. However, Martins Peralva[3], our friend from Belo Horizonte, agreed to tell me when Chico Xavier was about to go from Uberaba to Pedro Leopoldo... because he had just moved away[4], and was coming and going to Pedro Leopoldo, to solve family problems and many other things...

5. It looks like he had a lot of problems with his family. Did he ever report anything? Did he ever tell you about these problems?

No, we didn't have this kind of conversation.

That was when Martins Peralva spoke to me: "When he comes to Pedro Leopoldo I'll let you know, to avoid you going to Uberaba, because it's very far, and Pedro Leopoldo is closer to Belo Horizonte."

At the time I was going there, I got closer to him, and Chico made me a dedication (IMAGE 1) that I later put in my book Testemunhos de Chico Xavier, that even today touches me because you can see how much affection he had for me. He mentioned in the dedicatory.


IMAGE 1
Dedicatory made by Chico Xavier to Suely Caldas Schubert for the book Testemunhos de Chico Xavier
SCHUBERT, 2010, p. 5

Dedicatory transcription:

To the dear sister and distinguished writer Suely Caldas Schubert, to whose noble inspiration and great kindness, we owe the enlightening comments that greatly touched and instructed me in the texts of this book, the tribute of my recognition, praying to Jesus to continue to protect and bless her always in her elevated mission of Peace and Love, in our Luminous Path.

With my eternal appreciation,

Chico Xavier

Uberaba, 3-27-87

6. Regarding the book Testemunhos de Chico Xavier, when and how did you tell him you were writing about his letters?

When I released my book Obsessão/Desobsessão by FEB in 1980, the president was Francisco Thiesen, and we became very close. As FEB had approved my first book, Thiesen had the idea of inviting me to write the commentaries on Chico's correspondence. So, Thiesen invited me to FEB to present a proposal. It was a small meeting, in which Juvanir de Souza and Zeus Wantuil were presents, besides him. I was told that they were inviting me to write a book with the comments of the correspondence between Chico Xavier and the former FEB's president, Wantuil de Freitas[5], deceased a long time ago, father of Zeus Wantuil, who was there. Zeus carefully cataloged those letters and made a complete set of them in the format of a workbook, which was then handed to me.

7. Did they exchange a lot of letters with each other?

Yes, quite a lot! Almost daily.

Then, I started to read the letters, and because of the importance of the contents in Chico's texts, I was under intense emotion. It is necessary to clarify that, while writing, I noticed that I should make a selection of the contents of the letters. So, in the book, there are only parts of the letters, otherwise, it would become too big and could also be repetitive. At that time, I started to go to Chico very often because when FEB's President, Francisco Thiesen, invited me and exposed what the program was, I said to him something like this: "Well, but I must first go to Chico to ask him permission as this is a private correspondence." Although there are many teachings contained in all those moments in which he was writing to Wantuil de Freitas, I would like then to go there to first, ask his permission.

8. Is it correct to say that Chico never thought that these letters would go public?

Yes, that is correct. It is right, because when he heard that the content of the letters, he sent to Wantuil was going to be condensed into a book - logically the doctrinal part, which we were careful to select, Chico started immediately saying that they would not have anything with enough value to be included in a book. But we insisted, until the moment he said, "Well, if FEB believes that the letters have some value, then I agree and give my permission." I set a date, with Eurípedes[6], and went there with some friends.

9. Did he thought it was not important?

Yeah, he didn't think it was important. He said that it had no value in the point of view of spiritism. I explained to him what had been selected and that I was not going to expose his personal issues, only what was doctrinal, removing whatever I thought was not appropriate. I’m not saying that there were inconvenients in the letters because after all, he didn't say anything inappropriate, nothing that wasn't suitable. So, he gave his permission at that moment, but later FEB sent a written document because it had to be done. So, there is a document with Chico's signature allowing his letters to be revealed, to make it public. As a result, I went to Uberaba a few times.

It took me a while to write this book because, with four children and many difficulties, I used to bake sweet pies, snack pies, birthday cakes for order. When I finished making the comments on the correspondence, I set a special date, before delivering the originals to FEB, for Chico to see my work. Whose gave me his approval and permission for what I was also addressing and commenting on.

10. Yes, to find out if he was in accordance, right?

But, to my surprise, Chico arranged for us to do the reading at his place, at 8 p.m. We went there early, and after this time, we were already at the door of his place, and he received us warmly. We went inside and he took us into the living room, where the reading took place.

With great emotion, I sit down next to him. Initially, I explained how I had structured the book. It was such an interesting thing, because he read the first letter, and read it aloud! He stayed up until more than midnight reading aloud. Can you believe that? I used to say to him: "Chico, do you want me to read a little?" - "No, I'm doing fine" and he kept going on, but he started to read... he read his text, then he related the moment of the letter, explaining why he had written this, what had happened, without reading my comment! Then, as he was reading my comment, he wondered, and said, "Suely, it is like you knew what the subject was!" Because my commentary spread out more, it expanded, that's when then, he said that Dr. Wantuil himself was inspiring me. And he kept reading and reading, and reading, in sequence. When it was close to midnight, I said: "Chico, let me read a little for you. But he insisted, and only then he started skipping chapters. Before it, he was reading it in sequence. I even have a picture of this, you know? If you want, we can... it's a little picture (IMAGE 2), very simple in black and white, right?


Image 2
Picture of Suely Caldas Schubert with Chico Xavier at the presentation of the manuscript of Testemunhos de Chico Xavier
Suely Caldas Schubert's personal archive

So, I would stand there watching him reading and always saying: "But, it's amazing how you were able to capture what the subject was about!". I was very happy about that, and after a little after midnight, he approved. He said, "Look, I don't even need to see the whole thing!" He didn't get to see it all... around 30% he didn't see.

11. When we read Testimonies of Chico Xavier, it seems to us that Chico sometimes showed a certain sadness because of the negative harassment that people offered sometimes. Is this interpretation correct? Did he feel sad with these people, did he regret it? How was this relationship with the pressure they put on him?

Look, in fact, at that time, he did speak a little, and we noticed, let's say, an understanding of what was going on. It was in his nature the thought that negative harassment, or persecution, or slander, came from people who were sick. The person who makes a slander, the slanderer, is a sick person, who needs prayers, who... He never acted beyond that.

12. But did this make him sad? Did he show sadness about it?

I noticed a kind of sadness, but the contact with him used to be short. No matter how many times I went there, it was only a few minutes because sometimes there was a line of people. That is why, on the day he went to read, let's say, the originals, he asked me to do it at his place as it was very calm and quiet. Right? So, I felt that he wanted to see how I had approached it. I took it to him so that he could know the content of the material.

13. In my research, I am trying to classify if we can stand Chico Xavier as a mystic. Not in the sense of the mysticism, the one that was criticized by Kardec in his work, but a mysticism that comes from the heart, the type of feeling that can be found for example in Teresa of Avila, or Saint John of the Cross, Ignatius of Loyola, Albert Schweitzer, which are considered nowadays as great mystics because of their love, their purity of heart, their dedication to their neighbor, etc. From your point of view, do you think that Chico Xavier could be comparable to these mystics? Do you think that we can say he was a mystic?

No, I don't think so, because if you classify him as a mystic, it changes the meaning of the thing, he is a missionary. It is different, isn't it? These others are mystics, but if you classify Chico as a mystic, you can spoil his image and the immense and remarkable work he did, because he was not a mystic! He is a missionary. And the spiritist doctrine, within its rationality... The doctrine is very rational, isn't it? We don't have this mysticism thing like this. Now, people could even, when approaching him, have this sense that he could have something transcendental, different, right? But, in fact, he by himself and the spiritist, in general, don't have it either. He is not a mystic, you see! We cannot qualify him like that.

14. When you talked to him about the book, did he mention his readings? Did he mention if he liked a particular author, he liked reading in a particular way?

No. I remember that every time, he spoke about Emmanuel[7]! Emmanuel says this, Emmanuel said that he must have said... But I remember that he talked a lot about Kardec. He quoted Kardec, particularly the Gospel According to Spiritism (KARDEC, 2013) and The Spirits' Book (KARDEC, 2008). But he specifically mentioned the quotes of Gospel According to Spiritism.

Being with Chico Xavier was a great learning experience. Once, I participated in a wonderful activity that he used to do. It was a visit to the poorest people at night, and it was called a pilgrimage. I was invited to participate too. There were only four or five people with him, and he called another lady (who is still incarnated, she must be around 90 years old, she lives in Ipanema, Rio de Janeiro). She was from a spiritist center in Ipanema. I believe her name is Benildes. So, he called her. I didn't know her, and he called Benildes and gave us both his arm. We were walking. As there wasn't really a road, you could see a little path, you know? There, we walked in the middle of the bush. We were walking... there was some lighting... it wasn't completely dark, you know? And so, we went there. We arrived at the place, which wasn't very far away. We arrived at the place, a very humble little house. In this activity, Chico prayed and talked to the person. This was very beautiful. He did this for many years. He called it a pilgrimage. I was fortunate enough to go and watch this. Then, he prayed, put his hand on the person's head, caressed the shoulders, it was a way of administering the pass. It was a pass, right? Then, he would pray and, afterward, before leaving, he would put some money in a little corner, you know? So... I never knew how much, but it was something he put there, did you get it?

15. Did he have a lot of people that we can call followers? Who was closer to him?

Oh, he had! He had a lot of followers! But, particularly, at that time, it was a much smaller number. But later, when I came back to write the book, it was a lot, it was a lot of people.

16. Was Chico a happy person?

Happy? Very, very happy, very playful, very playful indeed! Once I went to visit him, and Divaldo[8] was there as well. It was like a party, Chico and Divaldo.

When he was going to start psychographing, he entered a private room in Uberaba, and the small salon[9] was crowded, absolutely crowded! And then, I was invited to sit at the table with the people who were going to make comments. Divaldo stood in front of me and I stood next to a lady, who I later knew was the mayor's wife. She was also a medium, and she was psychographing as well. Chico stayed inside the private room doing his psychography. People were sitting by the window as they were open, people sat down, others on the floor, there was no other way. Then, Chico came to read the letters. That moment, was a very serious one, mothers in distress, crying, each one thinking: "Will I deserve a letter?”. Those who had that opportunity or were blessed by receiving news from a beloved relative were there when it is a moment of emotion. Actually, it ended up moving everybody. You see it and you think it could have been me there too! So, it was a great emotion. On that day Divaldo was there, and he psychographed, I think, two or three messages as well. But not exactly letters to people. Because mediums and spirits, particularly the last ones, have fantastic ethics, it wouldn't be the case for Divaldo to psychograph for mothers, as this is Chico's work! Divaldo received messages from other spirits, comforting not directly to any person, but generally.

17. I would like to hear from you: How much did he sympathize with those mothers? How did he talk about it?

Chico always had great empathy, because he had great empathy with people. I was... Once I saw a very interesting case of a couple that arrived together with a physician. At first, we didn't know that it was a couple, a boy, and a physician. The boy was autistic. Only after the parents started talking to Chico, telling him about the case, they explained to us about the boy and told us that the man next to him was a physician, the pediatrician who had diagnosed him as autistic. The parents wanted to find out about it. The physician was a spiritist too, there's still this detail, all of them present are spiritist. They wanted to know if the diagnosis and treatment were well oriented if the orientation was correct, because autism was rare at that time and Chico explained. Chico said it in a very interesting way. He said that an autistic person, almost always, is a spirit that does not want to return to the body, does not want to reincarnate in general. Today, we already know that there are many other cases, but there are spirits that generally don't want to return. So, it is often necessary that parents talk to the spirit of the child when he/she is asleep, that they love she/he, that she/he is welcome. And he talks to the physician that he was right. That was a very interesting service that I witnessed. He has this compassion, this empathy. Many times, before the person even reaches him, he already knew about the case, you know?

Oh, there is another very interesting event that happened to me! He knew my thoughts, what I was doing in Juiz de Fora. This is a very curious one. Imagine how much time was gone! There was a young man from the city of Ubá. This young man always went to Uberaba together with a couple who owned a company. They were very close friends of this young man. The young boy was around fifteen or sixteen years old at the time when he first went there. And Chico created a great deal of care and affection for him. He was a boy who had some difficulties, but not that visible in a way that just Chico could notice it. So, Chico started to protect this young boy. He even slept in Chico's house. The couple always took him with them. This happened a few times, and as time passed the boy continued to go. He got married and had got a job, and the visits became much less frequent.

And then, one of these days, I was at home and the doorbell rang... Someone arrived, it was him! And he arrived there voiceless., He couldn't speak, and he had a notepad in his hand. Everything he wanted to talk he wrote in the notepad, and he told me with gestures that he was voiceless. Then, he wrote in the notepad that he was thinking that it was an obsession, that he was suffering from an obsessive spirit, and he came to ask me if I could give him a pass. I invited him to come in, he sat in the room with me, and I kept mentalizing my mentor. I decided to assist him as I was very familiar with him. For many years, he was very hardworking in the spiritist house he assisted. So, I knew who he was, his family, his wife, and his children. We went to another smaller room and I said a prayer. Soon, I felt the presence of the obsessor who immediately communicated and started to talk horrors about him. The obsessor started to dialog with him within a falsetto voice, asking forgiveness. Meanwhile, our persecuting brother was not referred. But he was very relieved and no longer had the falsetto voice as he made a great effort to speak, to thank him, and leave.

A few days later, he went to see Chico Xavier with the couple again. The couple in all those years continued to take him there, which was great. I wasn't aware of it! Around twenty days later, almost a month, he showed up at my house talking normally. He came and said: "Suely, I came to tell you something, and I didn't come before because I couldn't"? One of his children was sick. He said "I didn't come here before because I couldn't, but I got there and.... you won't believe it! Before I could say anything to Chico, he looked at me and said “Do you remember that mediumistic meeting you had in Suely's house? Do you know that spirit?” But what was very important about it was the fact that he knew that we had a meeting, the spirit communicated, and he was voiceless. He didn't know anything! Actually, he didn't know, but spiritually he understood all of it, you know? So, he helped to guide the spirit. And then, the young man was healed forever and ever (laughs)... He still is, until today. But now he is older and almost blind and has a lot of difficulties.

18. I'm going to ask a very obvious question: Did Chico Xavier put the spiritist doctrine above everything else in his life?

Everything! Completely! Totally, as Emmanuel was like that! And another thing, Emmanuel used to tell people: "If someday I leave Jesus and Kardec, don't stay with me! Go and find another person, because our path is Jesus and Kardec". Emmanuel always quoted Jesus and Kardec a lot. And it is important to highlight: to say that Chico is the reincarnation of Kardec has no sense at all. You know that, don't you?[10]

19. You mentioned in the book the issue of The Four Gospels of Roustaing (SCHUBERT, 1999, p. 87). Some people criticize Chico calling him a Roustang follower, even in a pejorative way. What do you think about this?

It was good that you brought this up because in my book Testemunhos de Chico Xavier there are references to Roustaing[11].

20. Yes, that is the reason why I am asking.

When I went to visit Chico asking permission to write the book, as per my agreement with FEB, - I would go there to ask for authorization anyway -, one of the points I mentioned was that some letters have references to Roustaing. I told Chico: “You didn't talk about it clearly, did you accept it?”. Do you know what he answered? “Oh, my daughter, at this point of my life, let people talk. You can put it. Let people talk!” So, in fact, he was also a little bit sitting on the fence. And I was more than sat on the fence. However, it didn't help, because I was called a Roustanguist for many years.

21. Some people say Spiritism is not religion, did Chico spoke openly about this religious aspect of Spiritism?

A lot, because Emmanuel's books say that, you know? In Pinga Fogo[12] he also talks all the time. So there, in Pinga Fogo (XAVIER, 1984), you have wonderful material!

22. Yes, I have the whole interview transcribed!

It's a wonderful material, isn't it?

23. So, can we say that Chico really believed that Spiritism is a religion?

Yes, indeed, indeed!!

Now about the possibility of Chico being Kardec [13], it’s not true! Also, it has no basis whatsoever! Kardec's thought is completely different from Chico's. Kardec’s way of thinking is more scientific, more philosophical. And Chico has a mentality completely oriented to the gospel. He was fully evangelized and came to evangelize other people, right? So, Chico is like that, gospel, all the time Gospel. He suffered a lot with family problems with his nephew[14], and many other things. So, Chico was like that. I don't have much else to say as I didn't meet him very often!

24. So, can we say, from your perception, that Chico - just to make clear your last sentences -, that he was much more intuitive than rational? He was much more emotional.

Yes, but I think he was both because Chico has a remarkable and fantastic intelligence. Chico's intelligence is on Emmanuel’s level. Regarding mediumship, I am writing a new book about Chico. And in this book, I am analyzing in one of the chapters Chico Xavier's mediumship because his mediumship was extremely high level, as never seen before, you know what I mean? So, especially analyzing the book Há 2000 anos (EMMANUEL, 1996) and Paulo e Estevão (EMMANUEL, 2020). These are two fantastic books, you see?!

25. In Pinga Fogo, which you mentioned, Chico said that Emmanuel asked him to meditate for an hour, and then write for an hour. What else would you comment on this? Do you know if he meditated a lot, if he often recollected himself for prayers?

Yes, of course ... Chico lived, let's say, 24 hours a day in the gospel practice. All the time. He had the physical part of the life, the material life, of course. So, he worked for his sustenance always helping his neighbor, things like that. But his mind and the contact were, all the time, all the time in the spiritual contact. That’s why I gave the new book the title "Chico and Emmanuel - Connection of Light". So that's it, right?!?

26. I thank you for your availability, and I am already looking forward to reading this new book. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, I hope I had been helpful.

REFERÊNCIAS

EMMANUEL (Espírito). Há 2000 anos... Psicografado por Francisco Cândido Xavier. 29. ed. Rio de Janeiro: FEB, 1996.

EMMANUEL (Espírito). Paulo e Estevão. Psicografado por Francisco Cândido Xavier. 45. ed. Brasília: FEB, 2020.

KARDEC, Allan. O Livro dos Espíritos. Tradução Guillon Ribeiro. 91 ed. Rio de Janeiro: FEB, 2008.

KARDEC, Allan. O Evangelho Segundo o Espiritismo. Tradução Evandro Noleto Bezerra. 2 ed. Brasília: FEB, 2013.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. O semeador de estrelas. Salvador: Livraria Espírita Alvorada, 1989.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Testemunho de Chico Xavier. 4. ed. Brasília: Federação Espírita Brasileira, 2010.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Obsessão/Desobsessão: Profilaxia e Terapêutica Espíritas. 13. ed. Rio de Janeiro: Federação Espírita Brasileira, 1999.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Divaldo Franco: uma vida com os Espíritos. Salvador: Leal, 2006a.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Transtornos Mentais: uma leitura Espírita. Belo Horizonte: Minas Editora, 2006b.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Os poderes da mente. 3. ed. São Paulo: EBM Editora, 2010.

SCHUBERT, Suely Caldas. Dimensões espirituais do Centro Espírita. 2. ed. Rio de Janeiro: Federação Espírita Brasileira, 2012.

SOUTO MAIOR, Marcel. As vidas de Chico Xavier. São Paulo: Planeta, 2003.

XAVIER, Francisco Cândido. Chico Xavier no Pinga Fogo. São Paulo: Edicel, 1984.

Notes

1 Interview granted in accordance with the TCLE (Termo de Consentimento Livre Esclarecido) under CEP registration number: CAAE: (16654819.7.0000.5137).
2 Dr. Augusto Militão Pacheco (1866 - 1954) was a homeopathic and spiritist physician with strong involvement in the foundation of the Spiritist Federation of the State of São Paulo (FEESP), already deceased at the time reported by the interviewee.
3 José Martins Peralva Sobrinho (1918 – 2007) was a spiritist writer and President of the Minas Gerais Spiritist Union.
4 Chico Xavier moved from Pedro Leopoldo to Uberaba City on 1959, for family reasons.
5 Antônio Wantuil de Freitas (1895 - 1974) was a Brazilian pharmacist. He was president of the Brazilian Spiritist Federation from 1943 to 1970.
6 The interviewee refers to Eurípedes Humberto Higino dos Reis who calls himself Chico Xavier's adopted son (his adoption was not recognized by the First Family Court of Uberaba. Available at: https://www.rotajuridica.com.br/euripedes-humberto-higino-dos-reis-nao-consegue-ser-reconhecido-como-filho-de-chico-xavier. Acesso em: 05 mar. 2021).
7 According to Chico Xavier, Emmanuel was the name of his spiritual mentor, who followed him since 1931, guiding him in his mission. (SOUTO MAIOR, 2003, p. 43).
8 Divaldo Pereira Franco was born in May 1927 and is a Brazilian teacher, medium, writer, lecturer, and philanthropist.
9 The interviewee refers to the small salon of the Grupo Espírita da Prece in Uberaba- MG.
10 The interviewee refers to a strong speculation in the spiritist environment regarding the possibility of Chico Xavier having been a reincarnation of Allan Kardec. This speculation became polemic in the spiritist movement. Opinions were divided, and, from one side to the other, opposing arguments were heard. Spiritist newspapers began to convey points of view; the subject is being worked on in doctrinal study groups, and the internet paths are full of articles, studies, and research on the subject. Available at: https://www2.sbee.org.br/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44:a-reencarnacao-de-allan-kardec&catid=13&Itemid=101. Access in: March 5, 2021.
11 Jean-Baptiste Roustaing (1805 - 1879) was a French spiritist who coordinated the work Les Quatre Évangeles - Spiritisme Chrétien ou Révélation de la Révélation ("The Four Gospels or Revelation of the Revelation/The Four Gospels - Christian Spiritism or Revelation of the Revelation"), a work psychographed by the Belgian medium Émilie Collignon. This work has been the object of great division and discussion among spiritists since its release in 1866 in Paris, due to its content being possibly contradictory to Allan Kardec's work. The Brazilian Spiritist Federation (FEB) was demanded, for a long time, by some segments of the spiritist movement, for maintaining and divulging the editions of this work that brought so many problems to the cohesion of Spiritism since its release. Such issues were even the subject of a court decision, on August 10, 2019, which authorized the removal of the dissemination of Roustaing's work from the FEB's objectives. Available at: https://www.febnet.org.br/blog/geral/noticias/ata-da-assembleia-geral-extraordinaria-dos-socios-efetivos-da-feb/. Access in: mar, 05. 2021.
12 On July 28, 1971, the medium from Minas Gerais was responsible for one of the biggest audiences on Brazilian TV with the "Pinga Fogo" program on the extinct TV Tupi, an exhibition in which 75% of the television sets in São Paulo followed the program until 3 a.m. (SOUTO MAIOR, 2003, p. 191).
13 The interview again makes reference to the controversy surrounding Chico Xavier being the reincarnation of Allan Kardec. See note 11.
14 It is speculated that the actions of Chico Xavier's nephew were the reason why he left Pedro Leopoldo and moved to Uberaba. Available at: https://www.em.com.br/app/noticia/gerais/2017/06/25/interna_gerais,878878/grande-bh-e-triangulo-mineiro-guardam-memoria-viva-de-chico-xavier.shtml. Access in: mar, 5 2021.


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